|DLC and the people who agree with it no matter what? (69) | Posted on March 22, 2011, 6:12 a.m.|
|So if I don't buy DLC, the devs will release a separate copy of the game just for people like me, who don't want to pay for DLC? So neat... LOL Phoenix, you don't know how economy works, do you?|
Actually that is entirely possible. I know of the Halo map packs eventually released for free and I'm sure there other examples. Oblivion released with all the extra DLC content for a cheaper price than the original. DLC is nothing more than classic market segmentation at work. Some gamers are more willing to pay for content. The standard price for a game is $60. Everyone pays that initially. Some are willing to pay a much higher price. Those gamers buy the Collector's Edition and get the DLC packed in. Some pay retail for the Standard Edition and pay for DLC. Some wait for bargains and never buy the DLC. The really dedicated gamers buy liscenced arcade sticks for various prices. The fact is that no matter how much you're willing to pay, Capcom provides suitable price point. If they do not the market provides one via second hand markets, rentals and piracy. Releasing paid DLC for free at a later date is certainly one possible package.
I seriously do not understand what the big deal is. This isn't directed at anyone in particular but DLC just makes sense to me. In terms of actual dollars, even if you include added DLC costs, gaming is getting cheaper over time. Cartriges used to cost ~$80 retail which today would approximate the price of a system itself. Today the market undeniably offers more products, at a wider variety at more price ranges than ever. The trend looks to continue and it's all signs of a robust and growing industry. The market tends to work itself out so stop worrying. Ultimately consumers generally have the final say though. However much anyone might dislike current DLC practices, they simply cannot survive without the consent of the consumer.
|DLC and the people who agree with it no matter what? (64) | Posted on March 21, 2011, 11:28 p.m.|
|The dollar vote concept is inefficient due to this very simplistic and, dare I say it, basic flaw. Basic economics are just that. Basic. Complex markets can not be summed up with basic explanations, so *stop falling back on them*|
Actually if anything your incomplete grasp of economics just shows why you believe you can dismiss basic concepts of economics. I also like how you try to conclude that since dollar voting as simplistic it cannot be applied to complex markets. That's just laughably shallow understanding. Dollar voting literally exudes through anything you do in market analysis. Take away that concept and economics literally does not function. Oh yeah but obviously since you don't understand it and it doesn't support your point you feel you must be able to ignore it huh? Moreover every single market in the world can be summed up with that basic principle.
If you dislike the concept of economics then say so and you can continue arguing against DLC on less logical grounds. If you do any sort of logical discussion however, dismissing basic economics because you can't understand them is just silly. Maybe you can tell us what field you'd rather use to study markets. I mean the human race has been doing via economics all this time but I'm sure you have something better.
Moreover DLC isn't even close to a complex market anyway. Either you buy it or you don't. Buy enough and more DLC is released. Buy too little and developers will seek alternative revenue elsewhere.
|DLC and the people who agree with it no matter what? (63) | Posted on March 21, 2011, 11:28 p.m.|
|No, the way used game sales factor into the "dollar vote" concept as I stated it is entirely accurate. Along with the rest of the examples I provided, those sales do not count as a vote *either way* and then the whole dollar vote ideal is completely ineffectual when you understand that *not purchasing a product does not -ever- count as a negative vote* while you presume that spending an indeterminate amount of money on a product remarkably always counts as a favorable, positive vote by the consumer.|
Ummm the dollar vote analogy is not ineffectual. You simply do not understand the concept. In terms of economics your own personal opinion does not matter. What matters is that you buy the product and in turn continue to buy the product. If Capcom realizes that they can make more money selling the DLC at a lower price or somehow induce more sales with free content, they will do so. I really can't believe how you continue to insist on arguing over market forces when you continue to illustrate clearly how little you grasp the subject.
Moreover your examples are completely wrong. Rentals count as a vote. Pirated games count as vote, or lack thereof. Demos affect voting. You're insistence on this matter is just digging a bigger hole for you. This literally isn't even debatable. You're literally arguing against one of the underlying principles of economics while simultaneously showing how little you actually know about it. Dollar voting dictates what is and is not produced by suppliers. They do not care if a consumer individually likes it, hates it or regrets the purchase. So long as the consumers collectively continue to buy their products, they ensure that similar products will continue to be released.
Then, you assert that the same sort of shovelware garbage which helped crash the market in the past is now an indication of positive growth for the same market. While I will agree with the majority of remarks I've seen about this subject that the industry has grown too large for this sort of junk to have an equivalently devastating effect now, I will disagree with you that it should *ever* be viewed as positive market growth.
Seriously good way to illustrate exactly how little you know about the videogame market. No, shovelware is good for the market. You can't even explain why it's so devastating without resorting to your own personal opinion that shovelware is bad. You're essentially saying that opening up an entirely new market for an industry is bad for the overall health of the industry. That makes absolutely no sense at all. Like really no sense at all. Why not correlate how shovelware is destroying the industry with some valid metrics? Of course you won't because you cannot. Those shovelware titles provide excess revenue at for suppliers at low risk and increases overall dollar revenue for the industry in general. By what basis other than your own personal opinion do you even claim that shovelware is so devastating?
Another person desires the same product, but does not agree with the price, so does not indulge. This person's feelings, opinions, thoughts, and ideas are all irrelevant. This person never purchases the product, and therefore, is never accounted for. No negative vote is determinable.
You really don't understand the concept at all do you? You're acting like it's an actual vote. Very basically the more sales the better so by not purchasing the product consumers let suppliers know that their offering is not acceptable. If enough people do so then the supplier will get the picture and release more suitable products. In terms of economics the negative vote is indeed taken into account in your example.
|DLC and the people who agree with it no matter what? (47) | Posted on March 21, 2011, 5:46 p.m.|
|Guess what? Publishers can or cannot include a map in their fantasy works at their leisure. Generally though maps do not generate additional income so they're included. Remember what I said about economics? If people are willing to pay for content then it's in the supplier's best interest to find a way to charge consumers. You're under the very wrong assumption that you are in a position to dictate what content is and is not permissible for sale. Sorry, to burst your bubble you're not some sort of market Czar and no one particularly cares what you do and do not believe. Perhaps you should do more research before using loaded terms like 'price gouging' as well.'|
Moreover your anecdotal analysis of the video game market is flawed on several levels. Let's just ignore the fact that you made hard conclusions based on the buying habits of your own circle of friends, projected that to the wider market and then decided that normal market forces obviously must not apply for a moment. Your own claims are just blatantly wrong. The videogame market is very able to distinguish between shovelware and quality games. There is a huge dropoff in sale revenue from the top selling dozen or so games every year and the next tier. Moreover the increased number of shovelware in a sign of industry growth. Whereas you dismiss them as market inefficiencies (that's not the term you used but I'm just inserting it here), they're actually very good for the videogame industry as a whole.
Finally your throwaway comment on used games sales is absolutely wrong. So do you seriously believe that any market with a second hand market is immune from basic economics? Well then I guess economics must not exist in any market since every market has a second hand market. Stop making things up and assuming you're right. Videogames is NOT immune to basic economics. Your precious idea of an efficient market is completely irrelevant to the general health of the industry.
|DLC and the people who agree with it no matter what? (35) | Posted on March 21, 2011, 12:31 p.m.|
|^Funny thing is that the term "Dollar Voting" is a pretty common analogy that economists use. Here it's ok to mock it and dismiss the concept. Out in the real world, everyone understands this very basic concept. Well whatever. That's internet whining for you...|
|DLC and the people who agree with it no matter what? (28) | Posted on March 21, 2011, 11:32 a.m.|
|The way I see it Luminaire, the only reason your argument is even partially valid is because we gamers are being sold licenses to play the software on the disc, and those licenses take advantage of us by "legally" *coughcough* restricting us from accessing other content.|
Actually no. My reason is undeniably valid because it's basic economics.
The fact that the data exists on the disc, and is intended to be in the final product (cumulatively speaking, the final product is the retail release + all DLC/patches/updates), but it is unreasonably restricted from access by the average player because they want to charge 5 bucks for it.
That's all your opinion. I already pointed out that arguments based on opinion are not logical so why bother throwing another one up when the best response you'll get is some one saying they disagree. The market decides what is and is not reasonable, not you.
|DLC and the people who agree with it no matter what? (24) | Posted on March 21, 2011, 11:04 a.m.|
|I like how people try to reference logic when the 'vote with your wallet' argument is literally the one argument in this issue that is factually based on logic. Everything else is you complaining about your own emotional responses. Yeah so developers should put their DLC all online where they have to pay more for servers instead of just finishing early and putting it on a disc simply because some random internet poster believes in some vague principle about disc data entitlement.|
|DLC and the people who agree with it no matter what? (20) | Posted on March 21, 2011, 5:27 a.m.|
|Lol @ random internet posters dismissing basic economics. Fact is, if consumers are willing to pay for something suppliers are better served charging for it. The truly funny thing is that this concept is literally as basic a concept in economics as you can get. Somehow this topic is filled with people that truly believe that their personal opinion somehow trumps the totality if every other consumer and supplier in the market. Yeah that makes sense...|
|BioWare: FFXIII is not an RPG (63) | Posted on March 20, 2011, 12:56 p.m.|
|Yeah, so basically Xenon believes that every game should be classified as a roleplaying game. That might make sense to you but to me that makes the term meaningless. Super Mario is by definition a roleplaying game too after all. I personally do not call every game a roleplaying game but feel free to do so if you really want to.|
|360 MVC3 Gamer Pals, let's play. (32) | Posted on March 14, 2011, 4:06 p.m.|
|^Bionic Arm is one of the best Supers in the game. It will go through anything and can punish a lot of moves.|
|BioWare: FFXIII is not an RPG (60) | Posted on March 14, 2011, 6:31 a.m.|
|Any definition of 'roleplaying' that FF would fulfill would be vague enough to include any tactical FPS game. That's my point. If you want to claim that FFXIII is heavy on multiplayer and if you try to justify it, that same justification can be applied to any number of other games that are not clearly heavy roleplaying games such as squad based shooters.|
I've played D&D Third Edition and, since we were young and didn't have money, my friends and I also bought the cheaper second edition materials too. So I can't comment on the first edition but I can safely say that D&D since second edition continually and consistently tweaked rules to allow players more control of their characters. Western RPGs have been following the same trend as well but were more limited with current technology. JRPGs have generally decided to focus on combat and class customization rather than character creation and story options. That's fine if you like that but the term 'Role Playing Game' is no longer accurate. With the original FF games, technology limited the gameplay options that the term was accurate. No game could possibly offer much more that that so that's as much roleplaying you could reasonably expect. Today the standards and limitations have changed.
|BioWare: FFXIII is not an RPG (57) | Posted on March 13, 2011, 9:32 p.m.|
|No, I'm saying that LARPing should not be a relevant concept in a discussion about RPGs. There is a semantic problem, as the 'role-playing' in each of those is pretty different.|
The only one that has a problem with the semantics of the terms is you really. The fact is that games like FF generally lack any significant level of actual role playing regardless of whichever term you want to use. Whatever amount of roleplaying that is evident is no more or less than you can find in any other genre that is not distinctly defined by its roleplaying elements. Games like Mario Kart or Ghost Recon has arguably have as much actual roleplaying as FF whereas games like ME or Oblivion clearly have more.
LARP has the term 'Role Playing' in it. The genre 'RPG' has the term roleplaying in it. It's really not a very hard concept to identify how games like FF do not have any real role playing in it. I don't know why you have such a problem actually talking about terms in a topic specifically designed to talk about those terms but you can't just tell everyone they're not relevant and expect everyone to agree. Perhaps you should go into another topic not specifically talking about RPGs or something.
|BioWare: FFXIII is not an RPG (52) | Posted on March 13, 2011, 2:23 p.m.|
|So let me get this straight. You don't believe that the term roleplaying should be a relevant concept in a discussion about Roleplaying games because of your personal belief that the English language should not have evolved since the 1970s....|
That's just nonsensical. If Bioware made that comment in the 1970s maybe you'd have a case. At best you're just admitting in a roundabout manner that FF really isn't an RPG if you're relying on outdated concepts that have long since evolved.
|BioWare: FFXIII is not an RPG (48) | Posted on March 13, 2011, 5:51 a.m.|
|Yeah, if you really want to insist that FF is an RPG because your characters fill certain unique roles, then your definition of the genre is broad enough to include MarioKart or Ghost Recon. So yeah thagt definition is a bit useless.|
|If the Kinect become a massive success, will this benefit or hurt the industry? (9) | Posted on March 12, 2011, 10:16 a.m.|
|People in this topic don't know anything about economics. I'm sure that it makes a lot of sense to some people for developers to ingore an already lucrative segment of the market once a new segment opens up but really... it doesn't make any sense.|
|360 MVC3 Gamer Pals, let's play. (20) | Posted on March 11, 2011, 10:17 a.m.|
|Sorry for leaving so abruptly. I didn't have my mic and had to do an errand. Send me an invite anytime. =)|
|360 MVC3 Gamer Pals, let's play. (19) | Posted on March 11, 2011, 10:13 a.m.|
|Last game. I only had time for a few matches. =)|
|360 MVC3 Gamer Pals, let's play. (17) | Posted on March 11, 2011, 9:59 a.m.|
|I'm ok. Gimme an invite. Friend list might be full though.|
|Should I play Mount and Blade again or pick up Demon's Souls? (4) | Posted on March 11, 2011, 8:50 a.m.|
|Why not pick up Warband?|
|What video games draw a great equality in story to Star Wars? (15) | Posted on March 2, 2011, 8:56 p.m.|
|Ummmm Star Wars just isn't very good as a story. The worldbuilding is pretty bad actually.|
|Forget Sentinel. Hsien-Ko is the real broken character. (13) | Posted on March 1, 2011, 8:06 p.m.|
|Yeah it only looks broken if you have no idea what the move's properties are. Anyway her armored Pendulum assist is ridiculously good.|
|Fighting games have evolved the least out of all genres (20) | Posted on March 1, 2011, 8:02 p.m.|
|What's sad is that the ignorant TC isn't even aware of how much depth high level play involves. Regardless, JRPGs have evolved far less.|
|You know, if Venom does make it to MvC3, it'll probably be the new one. (18) | Posted on Feb. 26, 2011, 5:20 p.m.|
|Antivenom would be a cooler and more diverse rendition.|
|PS3 Hacker graf_chokolo got his home raided by German Police ^_^ (53) | Posted on Feb. 24, 2011, 11:03 a.m.|
|You are forgiven.|
|PS3 Hacker graf_chokolo got his home raided by German Police ^_^ (50) | Posted on Feb. 24, 2011, 10:57 a.m.|
|*locksmith gives out lockpicking tools to everyone he meets*|
"What do you mean I'm a criminal? I just gave them the tools, how was I supposed to know that they'd use it to break into houses? These Door companies are just unfairly cracking down on me because I allowed everyone to use doors to their fullest potential!"
What's funny is that you actually believe that analogy makes sense.
|PS3 Hacker graf_chokolo got his home raided by German Police ^_^ (49) | Posted on Feb. 24, 2011, 10:46 a.m.|
|^Pointing out one faulty business model does not equate to anything substantial. There have been more than one study that have concluded that pirates actually purchase more media than those that do not pirate. On the contrary to common perception, pirates are generally the best customers. Moreover indie devs benefit the most from piracy not the least. If anything the bigger name games have a bigger basis for complaint.|
|I'm going to buy Chrono Trigger tomorrow. (29) | Posted on Feb. 7, 2011, 1:08 p.m.|
|The SNES one is still the better version IMO. The DS version has new content that isn't well implemented and it tries way to hard to shoehorn Chrono Cross.|
If you want a more authentic version there are various English translation patches available. Save yourself the money and play it via emulation.